Road to EIC: Beyond the Wallet - Building Network Effects for Digital Identity Adoption

Hello everyone and welcome to today's webinar. This is our Road to EIC, the European Identity and Cloud Conference, and here in this webinar series we take the most prominent and interesting topics that we'll be discussing there live at that event and give you a little tester of what that's like, allow you to bring your questions ahead of time so we can continue the conversation together in person in Berlin. So with me today I have a few of our speakers that you'll be able to meet in Berlin.

We have Dr Dominik Deimel who is the Managing Director of Wallet Experts GmbH, we have Helge Michael who is the CEO and co-founder of Lissi, and joining us shortly who's unfortunately experiencing some technical difficulties but I'm here she is just on time, amazing timing. We have Kristina Yasuda who's the Identity System Architect at SPRIND which is in Germany. I hope you can explain a little bit more but you're laughing at this is amazing. An organization for disruptive and innovative technologies.

My name is Annie Bailey, I'm a Senior Analyst with Kupinger Coal Analysts and I'll be the moderator today. We hope and invite your participation today. Please send in your questions as we're discussing. You can do that on the questions panel down in the lower right corner. So I'll be able to see those questions and bring them to our speakers in the time. So our topic for today is going beyond the wallet and focusing on building networking effects for digital identity adoption.

The people here are the right people to talk about this and each in their own way are working on this issue and so I'd love to hear first from each of you what are you doing in your professional life that connects you to the wallet and digital identity. So please Dominic maybe you can begin.

Yes, first of all Annie thank you for the invitation to this interesting webinar and I do that with a background of a medical doctor but I'm working in IT since more than 30 years and with my vision enabling people to share their personal data which more convenience and privacy by using decentralized technology. I found it in startup eight years ago called Communi and with our team we developed and provided one of the first wallet application in Germany based on the decentralized technology and focused in first use cases in insurance and healthcare market.

So we changed our role end of last year and now we are part of our organization the team changed to wallet experts and I'm now in the role to okay drive this team and of course drive the issue we talk about today because we focused on big organizations in the insurance and healthcare market to convince some to be part of the new EIDAS and wallet ecosystem. So that's my focus today in strategy consultancy and we are still building new services and adapters for the time when the wallet will be in place.

Great, thank you for that and looking forward to hearing more from your experiences. Helge, can you continue please? Yeah sure Annie, thanks for the invitation as well. I'm the co-founder of LISI and as you know we in LISI we try to connect organizations especially with the EUDI wallet.

So we're building an application it's called the EUDI wallet connector and the aim is we make it as easy as possible to connect with the wallet doing verification the issuance as well as strong customer authentication every kind of transactions and yeah and for building the ecosystem you do not need only the wallet you also need the software to do so and this is what we are doing.

We are part of the Funke wallet competition because we thought okay it's interesting to build our wallet ourselves to get a lot of knowledge out of it and yeah so we're participating in that one and in the past yeah we have been deeply involved into the development of standards for the EUDI wallet. I have headed the ID.Union consortium a big consortium here in Germany which had the aim to build an ecosystem in Germany and then EIDAS popped up and yeah we had the common goal to contribute to EIDAS and together with the OpenID Foundation we mainly contributed to a lot of different standards.

Fantastic and maybe for those audience members who aren't based in Germany what is the Funke competition? I guess Christina is the best to explain that.

Perfect, take it away. Okay great hi everyone my name is Christina so I work at Sprint. We are one of the agencies working on the German European identity wallet project. I like to tell how just put it so EIDAS popped up. So there is a regulation that member states have to fill in and our project's job is to make sure that the rollout of the wallets on the ecosystem the wallet ecosystem. I think when we say wallets we don't really mean just the wallet application anymore we mean you know this whole ecosystem including issuers and you know verifiers and all that.

So our job our project's job is to make sure that the rollout is successful in Germany right and so we work in collaboration with BMI, BSI, BDR. If you're in Germany those are the key organizations in identity space but yeah and as part of our project we have two big kind of work streams. So one work stream is to make sure that that ecosystem is successful right so that's where we have the architecture document basically.

So it's not just for technical architecture right the document basically outlines how the ecosystem how the wallet ecosystem in Germany should look like including the technical aspect but also you know the business aspect they've been spending a lot of time on the operating models to make sure you know how how are we going to make money you know how how to make it sustainable from a financial perspective too while preserving users privacy obviously and as part of that work stream our project have been organizing a competition called Funke.

It means spark in German where we have been giving grants small grants to companies building wallets and basically to challenge them to build that wallet that can make the ecosystem successful.

So gen three stages and you know each stage we've achieved a lot and we see wallet has been you know the wallets that have that we're working now in stage three and just to finish the story the second work stream our project has is so last year BMI German Ministry of Interior have announced that Germany will have a marketplace of wallets so wallets built by any companies if it passes certification can become a wallet provider in but German government will build an official German government wallet and there is a work stream working on that wallet as well so that's how Funke fits into the picture and that's what our project does.

Great thank you thanks for that context what's happening there in your organization also the connection then between Lissy and Sprint as well and so maybe just a few words about what Funke competition is.

Sure okay I think I tried to cover that but basically it's we wanted to make so but to have something on paper is good right but we want to make sure what we have on paper actually works right so the biggest goal of Funke is to validate that what we want to be implemented at large scale within German ecosystem is actually feasible like that's the biggest goal right so the goal is not to have production wallets or not the wallet is to the goal is to work together with these companies to push innovation in the space and okay I think what you're getting at is the specifically what we did is in stage one we built issuance of something called PID it's basically a digital version of national ID card in Germany so that EID system is not a not the most simple one so it was actually really good to validate that you know the way we architected it is you know it works and it's possible to get a digital version of German EID in the wallet that was stage one stage two so this the scope of this EID is is massive meaning it's not just this government issued identity data right it's any kind of identity data and not just identity data meaning it's payments it's mobile driving licenses it's e-prescriptions it's you know travel documents it's all that so in second stage we focused on how can we make user experience better how can we make sure we implement all those different kind of documents and in stage three is what we're working on now it's what we call advanced topics so that's transaction authorization for payments pseudonyms zero-knowledge proofs like advanced topics so that clear yeah so just to put it in different words so it's gathering different organizations who are really doing the practical work of building the wallets but putting it putting them through the paces so to speak really validating that we can achieve you know the basic level the interoperability level pushing the innovation to get to better user experiences before the EIDIS 2.0 really comes into full force and wallets are then required to be on the market so to speak so really driving innovation forward yeah and Helga can tell you like all the criteria we had it's not just interoperability scalability it's it's you know because again the goal is ambitious and we want to make sure you know we're getting there and we're on the right path and maybe from a participant of you at the very beginning we had ARF from EU yeah everybody knows and then we had a kind of German architecture and then the competition started and it was just like we had the documents yeah and we yeah had to build something out of the documents out of the documentation and introduce the first wallet to the Spring Funke team and at the end of each phase which Christina explained where was a jury vote and the jury voted okay how did we implement it all the requirements here when it comes to features when it comes to security user experience all that stuff and yeah and as Christina said the goal was really not putting something on paper but really having prototypes which work and in addition to the Funke prototype building we also do practical use cases with a wallet so for example all the Funke wallets are now participating in the potential and there are different use cases in the potential consortium and maybe to explain potential is a large-scale pilot in the EU with the goal to explore different use cases yeah and experiment with different use cases it's bank account opening it's qualified electronic signatures sim card registrations and to get practical experience the prototypes we have built in Funke are now yeah used in practical use cases within the potential consortium yeah so it's not just we have built a and getting for example the banks ready for the implementation of the wallets in the future great thanks for that extra explanation there we do have a question from the audience seeing the the differences between the EU reference wallet and with the wallets that are going through the Funke competition so do you see any value in the EU reference wallet or is the Sprint wallet totally separate can you speak to the primary differences between these yeah the purposes are very different right so EU reference wallet implementation at least the way I understand it has both functionalities right like anyone who any implementer any member state who you know wants to you know use the wallet for prototyping purposes like they can rely on that implementation and second on yeah if you want to use it for a production-based wallet you can use it too so maybe that was too much detail but actually so the production wallets in Germany we are you know relying on the EU reference implementation so for example you know like Germany is using it and other member states have seen them use the reference wallet implementation for their skill pilots too so that is like completely different right like let's like please let's not confuse that reference wallet with anything we're doing in Funke like for Funke the main scope is as I've been repeatedly saying to validate the ideas we have for German ecosystem overview right like for the EU reference implementation the you know they're implementing the architecture reference framework the standards you know it's a what any members they can rely on for us it's going to validate our hypothesis right so yeah I don't know what else to add but like those are two very very different things and I would not want us to confuse them.

Dominik, Helge, anything to add there?

Yeah I guess at the end what we would like to do is to reach interoperability with a reference yeah and we have done different cross-border tests and it's yeah it's going to the same direction yeah however as Christina said yeah we have for example in Germany we have this kind of smart card as the digital identity card it's digitalized and to build or include this specific EID card into the wallet yeah you need a specific approach to Germany and this is the same if you compare it on a protocol level it's pretty much the same however what we recognized in the pub that the reference implementation is always a bit behind on what we are doing so I guess the Funke team is always pushing it us to implement the newest kind of standards and and to experiment with it.

Great thank you and so I'm thinking about getting to the ecosystem here that we need to really make this whole thing work. Christina I thought it was nice the way you mentioned it often we're talking about the wallet but it's not just the wallet that needs to be present it's the collection of issuers verifiers and holders. How do we get there?

There's a big worry that I have which is that we know we know we have to achieve mass adoption for this all to work all of these different pieces but the wallet is the most publicly present in the eyes of our audiences of individuals who may be you know storing their PID there for organizations that are waiting on all of those is the wallet going to be the scapegoat here if we don't have adoption as quickly as we hope and how do we avoid that situation of the wallet taking the blame when it's not necessarily fair for it all the responsibility to fall on the wallet piece. Go for it Dominic.

No no I think we need to to have a real understanding about what we what we are doing that is not to bring a wallet into the market.

The wallet is only an instrument and relevant for the ecosystem is one that we really use the term on the right way we speak about the European or the German ecosystem then we bring it together with the relevant infrastructure so at the end we need to separate these two things infrastructure and ecosystem and on the other hand we know all the different actors in the ecosystem which use the infrastructure to organize decentralized data transfer and we need to be sure that to be part of the activism is one relevant principle is to use the same infrastructure and this infrastructure is not only the wallet it's much more to create a governance interoperability ecosystem needs to be to build up a lot of services and a lot of components which are necessary to use at the end the wallet or other kind of technology to drive the data transfer.

That's one of my first thesis and it's relevant to know it's a combination of the ecosystem is for running the ecosystem it's relevant to create common infrastructure.

Maybe to add something for me most important point next to the interoperability and the and it's not just the PIT it's all the other use cases especially authentication or we're working together in big pilots on strong customer authentication so it's a daily day-by-day use case and if you can really bring the wallet adoption to life then it's really the daily use cases and in the past especially in Germany we always had the problem EID was just used for identification by the government maybe for banking use cases but yeah it was you only had to use your two times a year and this is not enough so what's really important is not only focusing on the PIT also focusing on the lower level credentials yeah EAA's be it ticketing, be it authentication, be it strong customer authentication.

This is really core and make it as easy as possible to participating in the ecosystem especially for relying parties. That's right but if I can add something any but make sure there are a lot of use cases and we create new use cases with the technology the infrastructure and the ecosystem but there are a lot of existing ecosystems federations and in regulated non-regulated markets which be able and convinced that they use these infrastructure and technology to create added value.

We are always in a competition with other kind of technologies and we need to make sure that that what we are doing is much more cost effective or much more valuable for the participants of the ecosystem. So I think we're in a very good track and what I really like about our project is it's not just about technology. So in our project we have a lot of user studies like we talk a lot with the stakeholders like what is their expectations what are the needs we're trying to you know reach the different corners of civil society.

We do a lot of user testing with like specific features for the government-provided wallet. I think the Funkyo wallet also did their own share of the user testing. UI UX has been a huge focus of stage two and we do talk to different you know for like parties as well so you know we try to have this like end-to-end story. So yeah I think it's about creating that narrative that it's not just a it's this you know a bigger picture that makes the value the wallet more and more valuable right.

And so for example as a next step in our project in a German wallet project we want to have something like a playground where relying parties and ideally issuers too but I think we're starting relying parties because they're more ready right now they can play with the wallet right so they can interact a bit more to see how to make the transaction successful because again in this space what matters is like to see it work right like what's on the paper is you know we have to you know see how it works.

So I think for example that playground should become a very very powerful tool in educating the all the important stakeholders and getting us closer to the production right because that's the ultimate goal. So ultimate goal is all these systems including running parties wallet and the issuers to go to production right so not just you know we talk to thousands of users no we're talking about millions here right like so yeah.

Yeah thanks for that and then I think this was a great lead-in to the question it's about creating the narrative that it's not just about the wallet so it's active participation from all of these other different parties as well. Sounds like the Sprint organization is doing a good job of reaching out to those different stakeholders and inviting them in and creating that common space to experience how this works. What are other possibilities for this this burden to be moved off the shoulders of just the wallet providers or those working very very close?

I guess it's really important to have technology providers which also try to send a message to their customers and this is exactly for example what we are doing so we're reaching out to a lot of banks to a lot of huge ESPs to a and really sending the message yeah the wallet will be available in the next couple of months and you need to prepare for it and here I guess all the countries are really doing good if we also involve technology providers yeah and not try to do everything on their own but really enabling people to spread the message at the end of the day but not like you're sending marketing messages to a lot of organizations banks and whatever and telling them that they have an obligation to use it it's like really having different multiplicators to convince organizations and also send messages that's not only about the obligation but also about different advantages cost savings for example process efficiencies and this all comes with a wallet yeah and but organizations need to know it and whenever I speak to organizations sometimes we're really surprised because we haven't heard of a wallet at all yeah which sometimes surprised me because banks they have an obligation by 2027 to to use the wallet or to accept the wallet of their users but when you really talk about the advantage yeah this really convinces a lot of organizations and yeah you need multiplicators ambassadors really spreading the message and countries should not underestimate that but we need to be sure that we now still working in a bubble we are a lot of experts which are now going into the market to to explain the value and the technology with coming in the next couple of years and they do this job every day and we need to be sure that we come with first of all we come with technology and we we build up in technology and then now we need to convince them that they will be have added value if we if they change the mindset because we have a lot of existing ecosystems in the market and platforms and so on all of them work today with central databases with central based data sharing and the mindset we want to change to make us more cost efficient efficient and more with more proceeds that is first of all mindset changing and that's not easy because they invested in the last couple of years a lot of in the existing systems now we don't want to migrate it the existing solutions so more um use our new approach to you know to to make it more valuable for the user so it will be a challenge to speak with existing with the stakeholders because they are the decision makers of existing ecosystems and convince them to change or integrate these new um technology and this needs a real um mindset change I'll be quick I don't want to repeat myself but I think saying something working has been instrumental to move these things forward from my experience um so yeah just having a moving thing to it doesn't matter who you're talking to like very far is sure like potential user right like having this thing that might not be in production but you know you can see how it works with people get the ideas and start brainstorming and you know plan like that has been instrumental and yeah I think that's what you're also trying to do as a playground.

Great thanks for those thoughts there and from our audience we have a lot of questions coming in around use cases which by the way keep those questions coming um we love to see those so thank you for bringing your curiosity and your participation um so what are the most prioritized use cases or in um in other words what are the killer use cases to to convince users um that uh and businesses and um relying parties verifiers issuers that this has value?

It depends a little bit on the country where are you for example when I talk with German banks uh we are really looking into KYC processes because in Germany it's still done the feature identification uh EID is not very popular so and with a reliable that they can save a lot of money however this is not the day-to-day use case.

My favorite use case uh and we are coming from the banking sector this is why I'm always talking about this banking sector all the way uh this is from customer authentication and for the end user uh the beauty is uh but I currently do an authentication for a transaction I normally do it with a kind of photo turn or SMS turn and I have a lot of authentication means on my mobile device yeah I guess I at least have four different uh mobile applications just for authentication with banks and with a UDI wallet you just need to have a UDI wallet and then authenticate nearly any transaction from any bank in the European Union in the future and this is really a killer use case for me yeah because this means I've just one application and can do any authentication of transactions with the bank so for me most important use case especially for the finance sector from customer authentication.

I am not sure I fully agree with the framing of the question in a sense that a what we're building here is an infrastructure right like an infrastructure like water electricity whatnot right like it's something should be freely available and two I think we already know the killer use cases like it now like we really need to execute on them meaning if I don't have to send my passport pictures in email anymore if I don't have to turn on my camera and take a video of my passport when I'm trying to onboard to something and I can just use my wallet to send it like as a user I love it I want it right so like I think we have those pictures and we need to execute and make sure it's as seamlessly available as part of an internet infrastructure that people and services can start using it like without thinking.

But Christina do you have a favorite use case? I don't think we know like as I said like for me it's an infrastructure right it's like how do you like using your water do you like boiling it drinking it uh freezing it? See really the question is only if the user is deciding what is the best use case for him and or it is the organization and the stakeholder in the ecosystem who are the decision makers.

So it's I think much more relevant to find the killer users to solve a problem of them who are investing into the infrastructure or build up use cases and that's and need to ask what problem we can just um we can solve and this could be to reduce cost a cost or to get more customers like you which are really want to use these convenience and privacy technology. So relevant for me is not what we are thinking well only what the stakeholder in ecosystem are thinking and how we can convince them to invest into these use cases.

Another question from the audience do you have any learnings from other countries who are implementing EID for example Bank ID in the Nordics? My experience is a little bit in the countries like Sweden or Belgium where you already have a pretty well-developed EID ecosystem. I guess there's not so much urgency to really adapt the UDI world this is what I see. However I see Bank ID also in a lot of these large-scale pilots and really actively contributing. However especially I see the urgency in the not so well-developed countries.

Yeah and it will be really interesting to see how an UDI world will evolve in in this more developed countries like Sweden like Belgium. I guess it will definitely be an interesting challenge to compete with it or not compete or maybe to include it into the infrastructure. Yeah but it's this is really difficult to see but I see really the differences in the space and in the countries. From my perspective it's interesting that I believe in that we in Germany have a lot of pressure to change our digitalization landscape.

So for our country it's really opportunity to introduce the wallet infrastructure to really change the degree of digitalization in all use cases. In other countries I don't know if the pressure is so high. They have existing use cases which are running very well as Hager mentioned. So it will be interesting if the introduction in other countries of the already wallet infrastructure when we really improve the need to use it. So for Germany I would expect that we really want to go forward and as I mentioned in other countries I would be interested if they go.

I would like to share my experience from so large-scale public potential head interoperability event now two three weeks back and I was very happy to see the results. We really had different wallets from different member states talking to different verifiers from different member states. The scope was mainly the PID for now but even there like seeing different member states you know being on the same level of understanding and same level of kind of urgency need so to say was honestly fascinating to me. I think it's come a long way to get there.

There's still a way to go but yeah I think there's a really good kind of sense of cooperation happening between the member states. That's great to hear and to stay a little bit on the the use case topic longer but thinking about corporate use cases. Are you seeing either traction or more opportunities and interest around employee onboarding or employee moving processes to other countries, corporate wallets? What action do you see happening here? First of all we differentiate between the employee onboarding use case in the corporate area and the corporate wallet.

For me the employee wallet is kind of natural person and you can get a lot of kind of efficiency in the employee management and we see a lot of use cases especially use cases which we see is the scoring qualification of different employees but also when it comes to KYC process of an employee especially in the security area, banking area. These are use cases or when it comes to remote authentication to an existing employee system or physical access. Physical access is a big topic however what's currently lacking in physical access is the hardware.

So this will be not the use case the first use case which will be implemented however looking into a longer period of time three to five years I could imagine that this will play an important role because you still have this NFC cards and it comes with a lot of efforts on the company side to give out the NFC cards and to do all the management. When it comes to the corporate wallets for me this is a very very huge use case especially for supplier onboarding and also for the KYC process in the financial industry.

However what we are currently lacking is really of corporate wallets because there's a lot of discussions about natural chosen wallets in the large-scale pilots there's a lot of discussions about corporate wallets however when it really comes to something where you can play with corporate wallets it's not yet completely available and this is where I see a lag and I'm yeah I'm looking forward to seeing it to see it happen and I guess it will happen and it takes a longer time for the adoption.

So I will first of all I see the natural persons use cases starting and then the corporate use cases however corporate use cases really unlock the whole potential of the whole ecosystem. If we speak about corporate wallets I would expect that we speak about corporates which provide wallet for the customers partners and the employees and not the organizational identification. So if we speak about if we have the same thing about that I would we need to be aware that there will be different kind of infrastructure and ecosystems.

There will be the European identity wallet infrastructure based on the European governance regulation and there will be a lot of opportunities to use the technology the interoperability and other kind of tools from the worldwide wallet ecosystem to create their own use cases. So at the end there will be it was necessary for big brands to decide if they use the European identity infrastructure or if they create their own ecosystem or their own wallet infrastructure.

So that means I expect that at the end every real brand will use the value of the wallet technology for the customers employees and partners but at the end I need to decide on which way and on what kind of infrastructure you will use it. Yeah I think from our project perspective right now we are focusing on the natural persons wallets and natural persons use cases.

We understand absolutely the importance of legal wallets and legal identity but you can't do everything at the same time and for the use case perspective like that's what we chose to prioritize now and to get it right first and I think there are a lot of you know crossovers so if you can get natural persons wallet right there are a lot of things that can be applied to legal wallets not everything probably but you know so I think and obviously it's what I said might not apply to all projects right.

I think for some projects it makes sense to start with legal identity which is totally fine but there are different approaches to this. Great thanks for those responses and shout out to the audience keep sending in your questions and if you have follow-up questions to these please feel free to put it in the chat. Cycling around to a privacy compliance questions do any of you know if the cryptographic questions regarding the technical reference architecture? Yeah do you want to take that question? Yeah I can take this one.

So I think that issue that is being cited in the question has started a really healthy good discussion that is still going on so I think that the conversation was cryptographers understanding the requirements of the EIDIS 2 and you know the wallets a bit more you know the requirements around level of assurance high and hardware binding and all that you know so it did push on you know different member states and different stakeholders to think about that aspect I think deeper and I think what I can speak for Germany for German wallet project for example is I think what we're discussing is and there will be a public report and everything but I think we understand the importance of zero-knowledge proofs the importance of very far to very far linkability it's definitely something that we believe in and we want to have so we're trying to investigate in what is the best technology what is the best you know algorithm credential format you know what not to get there and there are a lot of barriers to go there to be honest right it's about is that crypto suite or the new mechanism for zero-knowledge proof standardized is that you know approved by BSI is that supported in the hardware is that peer peer reviewed right there are a few approaches that have been like gathering all the attention but are they peer reviewed you know is there you know agreement within the cryptographic community what's not so we definitely want to get there we're investing like we even have an advanced cryptography group within our project which I find fascinating so and again as I mentioned earlier we are asking Funkit teams to you know bring their expertise about zero-knowledge proofs on the table as well so it's something we want to invest in something we're committed to having said that can we implement it in production in a scalable manner right now because the reasons I mentioned answers unfortunately no right so we're starting with batch issuance of the credentials that is the way we know to mitigate very further frowning ability right now might not be ideal for some reason but it a it works and two I think there are ways we can improve performance how to do that so I see that as a two-step or maybe multiple steps but like it you know like again step-by-step process we acknowledge the need and we will get there gradually great thanks Christina um going back to our use case questions um somebody put the question out there what's um going to be applicable for travel agencies and um if any of you want to talk about some of the the interesting work being done around travel credentials um uh this would be a great time to share nobody wants to cheat maybe maybe maybe I can I can try to say something about it I guess in the travel industry there are really a lot of different use cases uh but what's also important and what we have recognized uh it's also on the passport level so whenever you need to do cross-border and even uh out of a European Union you need a passport and then you have different credentials and this can be complicated with the UDI wallet so there needs to be a kind of uh uh yeah adaption to the existing or what standards however what we see is especially use cases uh more light-weighted when it comes to for example ticketing in EWC we're doing ferry tickets for example we're doing uh tickets for museum and this is this is a an interesting use case because ticketing is also a kind of day-to-day use cases and it works quite good yeah we have also gone in some piloting uh user feedback is great and I guess the whole potential uh cannot be underestimated yeah and what for example if you look into the whole overall story it's uh it starts with booking an airline ticket where you show your for example your PID where you show your your account or maybe also your payments yeah we haven't talked about payments but payments can also be included in into this travel use case where you directly pay with a kind of credit card initiation uh can go with you get your tickets into the wallet but not only the ticket you can also get an hotel key even yeah and for example if we have a capability in future to have a kind of uh interface to the physical world opening for example at a hotel room then normally it would be possible to get everything in into the wallet even the key for the hotel and this can allow for a lot of uh yeah efficiency in in the travel industry and you do not have to carry around all the kind of documents you currently carry around with you and you also have a lot of uh more uh data quality at the end of the day however we are really at the starting point uh how digital travel can uh look like in the future great for those words thank you and let's do a a closing round here looking at the future so what um what progress do you expect to see in um adoption over the next year and so this of course could be anything from wallet rollouts to mobile driver's licenses um anything which which you're anticipating to see in the next year what's the time frame we can also spend a few years depends on how optimistic you are what i expect them to see is uh the first member states will start with a wallet yeah we've seen first approaches uh by the italian government yeah we for example we will be have a remote flow for mobile driver license hopefully uh at the middle of the year uh hopefully even further and also with the german wallet i hope at least with a playground hopefully we have a sandbox at the end of the year and we see it uh in the next and first use cases in production this is my hope in in some of the member states at least uh first use cases will be mainly on pit and mobile driver license and we should not underestimate the the mobile driver license because you had an in germany you had a project this was done by the uh the chancellery project uh i guess at the end of the day from a technical perspective it was a nightmare however people in the first four hours applied for the mobile driver license and it was 250 000 people wanted to have a mobile driver license in the first four hours and this is really uh where we see uh the adoption and and and what people really need and for me a mobile driver license is kind of the killer adoption use case because the only thing you need to carry around with you is the kind of physical plastic card of your mobile driver license i guess you can do payments with your wallet you can any nearly everything with your wallet but you do need your mobile driver license while driving with your car and even they are not or even there are not so many use cases with the mobile drivers everyone wants to have it and to get it you need at least in tribal license and then people at least have a wallet and so you can build use case after use case and this is what i'm hoping for yeah but people want the mobile driver license and then be downloading for example the pit get it derived into the wallet and then then for example way and then they will be asked by a bank to do a kyc process that they have the pid uh already in their wallet and this is where i really hope for that we will see out of different use cases and especially mobile driver license in relation to the pid is a good starting point and this is what i definitely will be able to see in the next 12 months thank you i'm not so much optimistic because it's not only to bring the technology into the market bring the infrastructure in place it's a lot of organizational changes necessary for instance driver license revocation with registers and so on so the question is who will be the showstopper the existing infrastructure or the changes in the um by issues or relying parties so um i think we as part of the bubble we are really convinced in into the technology on the roadmap and we are really waiting in hope that it will be true in the next couple of months but i think there are a lot of things things to do much more than in building the ecosystem and convincing and consult them and help them to change not only mindset than the relevant the relevant processes which are enabling the use of the infrastructure to make things a bit spicy i personally think mgl use case is a bit overhyped um i i agree people want it absolutely but at the same time like i think there's a lot of attention because like in america for example they're planning to use all driving license as identification means right in europe you don't have that like in europe if there's the id driving license it's just driving privileges right so i think that might be a little bit overhyped in that opinion but they don't disagree that like that you know use case people have been testing for a long time so in terms of production already um and i actually think that's where um vehicle registration might actually you know like get c adoption faster than driving license in europe for example um so yeah just to just to make things spicy but i agree that like um i think the next big thing is these things being more available right i'm not sure how much you like the bubble term but it is true that right now it's uh you know like you need to get access to these things but making access to wallets and playgrounds like more widespread um because even for large scale large scale pilots right you need to be a part of it right but like you know kind of making it easier to access and play with these things is what will show us the next batch of things to tackle and solve and that's where um where we collectively should stay open-minded um and you know adjust things as we go as we go i think i think honestly so i've been involved in this space for uh 10 plus years like a lot of us have been doing this for a long time right and like i think right now we have kind of the best try at getting it right like i think a lot of stars are aligning like the regulation the technology the interest they you know they pilots and users and you know support from um infrastructure infrastructure support by the platforms right even like systems as much as relationship towards them is controversial within europe like like there are some questions about you know session hijacking in the chat but like unfortunately we need collaboration from those platforms if you want to really secure uh the cross-border cross-border cross-platform interactions so i think a lot of things are aligning so i think it's for us to like a set expectations with stakeholders it's not going to happen overnight it's going to happen gradually and you know stay open-minded to build trust in all this that we will be fixing these things one by one i don't know if fixing is the right term but like we'll improving things um one by one and yeah like i hope and i should say hopefully i'm confident we'll get there well a big thank you to all three of you and we had one last question come in just in the nick of time and so maybe we can do a 30 second lightning round so what's your perspective on major retailers so things like amazon ebay but then expand that out even to the to the major tech providers how they're advancing in wallets and use cases you have been looking into especially the large-scale pilot and for interest we see a lot of hyperscalers currently looking into the udi wallet and i'm really surprised here because uh even yeah the europe payment providers are sometimes a little bit reluctant i guess the hyperscaler have completely understand the whole story and what is the reason why we're looking and for me where killer use case is payment and delegated authentication yeah because what we currently see is whenever for example you do a payment with a credit card you need to go the 3d process and have an authentication at the end of the process and if you can do that up front you can uh yeah tremendously increase your conversion and for me this is really interesting and this is the reason why the hyperscaler looking into it yeah and yeah i'm interested to see it another reason is uh an obligation because hyperscaler whenever you have more than 40 million people according to the digital markets act you also need to accept the wallet of users so this is another use case it's more for authentication yes kind of single sign-on with a wallet i'm not sure if this is really the main use case where a lot of additional value comes in but yeah we will see how this was great then thank you uh once again to all three of you this was a great discussion and thanks for taking all of our audience questions on the fly so i look forward to repeating this uh later in again this is a little preview of the sort of discussions we'll have at eic it'll be happening in berlin may 6th through 9th or you can tune in virtually as well so we look forward to having you join us there and look forward to continuing the conversation so take care everyone and we'll see you in berlin thank you see you in berlin okay bye-bye thank you bye-bye